2 small-car rumors: Can any GM or Toyota "insiders" confirm or deny?

[rimtrim]

Two rumors I've read on the net recently that are kind of mundane, but caught my attention:

1) Pontiac will be bringing an Aveo clone (like the Canadian Wave) to the US under the G3 name for '09

2) Toyota will add the 5-door Yaris in the US for '09 (for you Canadians who already get this car: we get the 3-door and the sedan only.)

If these are true, I'm wondering if they indicate that the subcompact floodgates are opening, and we're about to redo the period of 1981-86, during which every crazy subcompact in the world got shipped over here just to see what would catch on. There was a time when Chevy had the Chevette, Spectrum, Sprint, Nova and Cavalier all new in the same showroom. While that was a little silly, I wouldn't mind seeing some oddballs like the Suzuki Swift come back to our shores. And the truth of those 2 rumors would indicate that the automakers are entering panic mode, and just throwing every variation on the market so somebody else doesn't get the sale.

-Andrew L

[VarianceVQ]

I'm not an insider of any sort but a quick search of the USPTO website shows GM has indeed filed for the trademark "Pontiac G3" this year. Whether this is the source of the rumor or adds credibility to it I don't know.

[Old Dude GTI]

I wouldn't doubt it. Honda's been promoting their CR-Z and Fit hybrids. They're not stupid, they know gas will never go down in price again. I want a 1500 pound 100-HP car. Fast with great mileage.

[rimtrim]

The main source of the G3 rumor is that the car is listed on fueleconomy.gov. However, that site has listed other cars in the past that were never actually available. For example, the Canadian Pontiac Wave (Aveo) and Pursuit (Cobalt) were shown there when they came out, but were only offered in Canada. However, everything I can find indicates that the car will still be called Wave in Canada for '09, which makes one wonder what's up. There's a Pontiac G3 already in Mexico, but I've never heard of a Mexican car being listed on fueleconomy.gov.

I guess nobody really cares whether they can get an Aveo with a Pontiac grille, but I like this sort of detective work

-Andrew L

[AKADriver]

I believe the next-generation Swift will be coming here. Too bad we'll have to wait, because the current-generation car is a smash.

[LuckyDogg]

I would assume GM is renaming the Wave as the G3, similar to how they renamed the Pursuit as the G5. The Wave/G3/Aveo-clone really doesn't seem to fit with the long-term image Pontiac is striving for.

[Swallow Doretti]

Quote, originally posted by LuckyDogg »

I would assume GM is renaming the Wave as the G3, similar to how they renamed the Pursuit as the G5. The Wave/G3/Aveo-clone really doesn't seem to fit with the long-term image Pontiac is striving for.

I believe that's because GM has chucked a lot of its long-term plans for Pontiac into the trash. The rumor I've heard, actually, is that Saturn is going to be canned, and some of those products may end up at Pontiac.

[rimtrim]

Quote, originally posted by Swallow Doretti »

I believe that's because GM has chucked a lot of its long-term plans for Pontiac into the trash. The rumor I've heard, actually, is that Saturn is going to be canned, and some of those products may end up at Pontiac.

That's an interesting one -- Saturn clearly has problems, but I think shutting it down would be really difficult since most of the dealers are stand-alone. Pontiac would be easier to shut down, since most of its dealers sell Buicks and GMCs. They could drop the G6, merge the G8 into the RWD Lucerne replacement, turn the Vibe and G5 into a Skylark lineup, and be done with it. Not that I want this to happen, but from a business standpoint it seems feasible.

GM should have made the Volt a Saturn. People who are still driving their SL2s with 200,000 miles are exactly the kind of people who want to buy a hybrid. Saturn has nothing to offer them now: it's either the nice but overpriced Astra, or a bunch of large vehicles. I'd like to know how many S-Series are traded in for Priuses. I bet it's not a small number.

By the way, I did some searches on the USPTO site after the tip posted above, and found that GM has not registered G1, G2 or G4, so they're not just doing a wholesale grab of all the G# names. Also, the Wave name is not registered in the US either, but the G3 is registered both as a plain name and a G3 logo. So I think it's a safe bet we'll see something under that name soon.

-Andrew L

[P-Body]

Quote, originally posted by rimtrim »

If these are true, I'm wondering if they indicate that the subcompact floodgates are opening,

I'm not sure that these two particular rumours indicate that.

Toyota is essentially adding one more trim to a car that is selling well for them, and GM is probably caving in to dealer demands to have a subcompact at BPGMC dealers in light of higher gas prices.

[tjl]

Quote, originally posted by rimtrim »

Two rumors I've read on the net recently that are kind of mundane, but caught my attention: 1) Pontiac will be bringing an Aveo clone (like the Canadian Wave) to the US under the G3 name for '09

Go here http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm and you'll find that there is a 2009 Pontiac G3 and G3 hatchback with EPA fuel economy ratings.

[Demo24]

Can someone explain to me why the Aveo gets such poor gas mileage? I would have thought it would be close to the Yaris figures, but it's no where close! For 2009 it seems to have gained a couple mpg but not much. An Accord/Camry can do just as well or better than an Aveo and they are twice the size!

I would have thought a 1.6l could deliver better mileage.

[Levish]

Quote, originally posted by Demo24 »

Can someone explain to me why the Aveo gets such poor gas mileage? I would have thought it would be close to the Yaris figures, but it's no where close! For 2009 it seems to have gained a couple mpg but not much. An Accord/Camry can do just as well or better than an Aveo and they are twice the size! I would have thought a 1.6l could deliver better mileage.

Probably victim of the new ratings, its' pretty decent if i'm not mistaken. Not to mention the starting price is just 10235 according to edmunds which alone would probably buy you gas for a whole year compared to a yaris's starting price.

[GoFaster]

Quote, originally posted by Demo24 »

Can someone explain to me why the Aveo gets such poor gas mileage? I would have thought it would be close to the Yaris figures, but it's no where close! For 2009 it seems to have gained a couple mpg but not much. An Accord/Camry can do just as well or better than an Aveo and they are twice the size! I would have thought a 1.6l could deliver better mileage.

HEEEEAAAAVY. That is the problem in a nutshell. It just isn't a very sophisticated design, and it shows in the weight.

Yaris was designed to be light, and it is.

[Wes@motivemag]

If Pontiac builds driving excitement, some other division must make the G3, then.

[AKADriver]

They didn't even bother to Photoshop the Chevy bowties off the wheels.

[andlf]

Quote, originally posted by AKADriver »

I believe the next-generation Swift will be coming here. Too bad we'll have to wait, because the current-generation car is a smash.

Evo magazine, among others in the UK, loves it!

[Wes@motivemag]

Quote, originally posted by AKADriver »

They didn't even bother to Photoshop the Chevy bowties off the wheels.

Actually, I didn't, because I created that for a graphic on the Motive news page where the wheels weren't visible.

I just thought the full-size looked good enough to post in here for fun.

[SebringMGB]

Quote, originally posted by AKADriver »

I believe the next-generation Swift will be coming here. Too bad we'll have to wait, because the current-generation car is a smash.

Just so long as we dont just get a goofy looking sedan version or something...

That would be typical though, right?

[VW1.8Tsunami]

Quote, originally posted by rimtrim »

2) Toyota will add the 5-door Yaris in the US for '09 (for you Canadians who already get this car: we get the 3-door and the sedan only.)

Isn't the xD the a 5-door based on the Yaris?

[AKADriver]

Quote, originally posted by VW1.8Tsunami »

Isn't the xD the a 5-door based on the Yaris?

It' a wagon/crossover though...

He's referring to an actual 5-door Yaris, which is a body style already available everywhere the Yaris/Vitz is sold, except the USA. It's even already certified to exceed US safety standards since it's sold in Canada.

[surefooted]

Quote, originally posted by Wes@motivemag »

Actually, I didn't, because I created that for a graphic on the Motive news page where the wheels weren't visible. I just thought the full-size looked good enough to post in here for fun.

Wes, that's called being lazy.

[Viener Vanker]

Quote, originally posted by Demo24 »

Can someone explain to me why the Aveo gets such poor gas mileage? I would have thought it would be close to the Yaris figures, but it's no where close! For 2009 it seems to have gained a couple mpg but not much. An Accord/Camry can do just as well or better than an Aveo and they are twice the size! I would have thought a 1.6l could deliver better mileage.

I thought the same of the Hyundai Accent. It's not "poor" mpg, but not what I was hoping for in such a small car. That said, the price is also right on that one.

[true snowboards]

Quote, originally posted by Viener Vanker »

I thought the same of the Hyundai Accent. It's not "poor" mpg, but not what I was hoping for in such a small car. That said, the price is also right on that one.

depends how you drive it.

stomping on it, i get 28mpg.

being gentle and driving at the speed limit, 33mpg.

hypermiling and pulling off every fuel efficiency trick in the book, i recently achieved 40mpg - granted, not over a complete tank like the other two figures, but i'm sure i can get upper 30's over a complete tank.

[Froster]

Quote, originally posted by Wes@motivemag »

Actually, I didn't, because I created that for a graphic on the Motive news page where the wheels weren't visible. I just thought the full-size looked good enough to post in here for fun.

Your photochop is better than the actual Wave sedan frontend:

UGH !

[EminiTrader]

What I want to know is - why on EARTH has Suzuki not brought us the current SWIFT????????????????????????

http://www.motorionline.com/pu...8.jpg

[uncleho]

Absolutely, without a doubt, maybe.

[GahannaKid]

Quote, originally posted by EminiTrader »

What I want to know is - why on EARTH has Suzuki not brought us the current SWIFT???????????????????????? http://www.motorionline.com/pu...8.jpg

Safety regulations, weak dollar, insufficient manufacturing capacity, who knows with them

[Arju]

I want a Polo GTI... that's the subcompact I'd wait for.

[dr.pepperuwm]

Quote, originally posted by Demo24 »

Can someone explain to me why the Aveo gets such poor gas mileage? I would have thought it would be close to the Yaris figures, but it's no where close! For 2009 it seems to have gained a couple mpg but not much. An Accord/Camry can do just as well or better than an Aveo and they are twice the size! I would have thought a 1.6l could deliver better mileage.

It gets the same as a Fit. I hate the mindless hating on the Aveo in here. Who cares if it drives like ass and has a cheap interior, its 10K dollars NEW with a warranty.

Which Accord or Camry gets 25mpg city and 35 mpg highway?
Hybrids don't count.



Modified by dr.pepperuwm at 12:28 PM 5-23-2008

[SSLByron]

Quote, originally posted by rimtrim »

That's an interesting one -- Saturn clearly has problems, but I think shutting it down would be really difficult since most of the dealers are stand-alone. Pontiac would be easier to shut down, since most of its dealers sell Buicks and GMCs. They could drop the G6, merge the G8 into the RWD Lucerne replacement, turn the Vibe and G5 into a Skylark lineup, and be done with it. Not that I want this to happen, but from a business standpoint it seems feasible. -Andrew L

Easier to shut down, maybe, but much more rich in brand history and equity than Saturn. And honestly, Saturns would make better Buicks than Pontiacs would. Don't get me wrong though; I agree 100% about the dealer network logistics.

I'm torn on it, personally.

[rimtrim]

Quote, originally posted by P-Body »

I'm not sure that these two particular rumours indicate that. Toyota is essentially adding one more trim to a car that is selling well for them, and GM is probably caving in to dealer demands to have a subcompact at BPGMC dealers in light of higher gas prices.

What I meant was this: There used to be "brand strategy" reasons why those cars were not sold here: the Yaris hatch would compete with the xA/xD, and the Wave/G3 would compete with the Aveo and would be too "cheap" for Pontiac's image. If they decided to bring those cars in anyway, it would indicate that brand strategy has gone out the window in the struggle for small-car sales -- a similar situation to what happened at Chevy in the '80s.

Overall this might not be a terrible thing -- I think excessive brand strategy can be just as harmful as none at all. But also, there are a lot of older guys who remember being a kid when the original GTO came out, whereas I remember being a kid when the Daewoo LeMans came out. So my view of "what is a Pontiac" is a little less rigid.

-Andrew L

[VarianceVQ]

Quote, originally posted by dr.pepperuwm »

I hate the mindless hating on the Aveo in here. Who cares if it drives like ass and has a cheap interior, its 10K dollars NEW with a warranty.

I'll buy something 10k used instead and take my chances, thanks.

[dr.pepperuwm]

Quote, originally posted by VarianceVQ »

I'll buy something 10k used instead and take my chances, thanks.

A 4DSC?

[CamaroDude]

Pontiac won't survive just on rear-drive V-8 sport coupes and sedans. With the EPA hike coming for 2020 (and California likely to speed its hike up), Pontiac will need to have smaller vehicles to make up the volume of its production. Better sooner than later.

This isn't a bad thing, either. There are plenty of small cars that are fast and fun: the Mini Cooper S, VW Rabbit GTI, and (Euro) Ford Focus RS. Dodge did a good job turning the Neon into a turbocharged bargain bruiser for under $20K. Ford had the SVT Focus and Chevrolet has a solid car with the HHR SS.

[yoohoorocket]

Quote, originally posted by rimtrim »

1) Pontiac will be bringing an Aveo clone (like the Canadian Wave) to the US under the G3 name for '09

I can't imagine why they would do that. Are there really people looking at the Aveo who say "no way" but would then lust after a Pontiac clone of the same car?

Quote, originally posted by rimtrim »

2) Toyota will add the 5-door Yaris in the US for '09 (for you Canadians who already get this car: we get the 3-door and the sedan only.)

I don't think so. It would compete directly with the Scion xD, which despite having a 1.8 liter with more power for almost the same MPG and way more standard features for the same money STILL gets massive out-sold by the Yaris sedan here.

The Yaris is an OK car and a good value in base form, but once you add ABS, airbags and the usual features people want they are like $17k+ whick is a little ridiculous. The xD is a way better value if you want options (or even better, go with a Honda Fit)